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	<title>Comments on: Why (I Believe) Protestants Should Reconsider Purgatory</title>
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	<description>A blog about the New Testament, Christian Origins, and other interesting and not-so-interesting stuff.</description>
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		<title>By: Benji Overcash</title>
		<link>http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Benji Overcash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I wish I could! I enjoy talking about such things with you, too. It&#039;s challenging, and I learn a lot.

I would say that I hope married life is going well, but I know it is. Enjoy it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I could! I enjoy talking about such things with you, too. It&#8217;s challenging, and I learn a lot.</p>
<p>I would say that I hope married life is going well, but I know it is. Enjoy it!</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-28</guid>
		<description>Thank you for clarifying for me more precisely that piece of Wesleyan Theology.  I have never boasted much more than a cursory knowledge of it.  I believe that further comments on it would require face to face conversating.  Not that I&#039;m trying to make you Reformed, just that I enjoy talking of these things.  So, could you make it down to Anderson this evening so we can talk when I get off of work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for clarifying for me more precisely that piece of Wesleyan Theology.  I have never boasted much more than a cursory knowledge of it.  I believe that further comments on it would require face to face conversating.  Not that I&#8217;m trying to make you Reformed, just that I enjoy talking of these things.  So, could you make it down to Anderson this evening so we can talk when I get off of work?</p>
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		<title>By: Cody Thomas</title>
		<link>http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Cody Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Great discussion, guys!  I&#039;m enjoying being a &quot;fly on the...blog wall.&quot;  Benji, that last paragraph on your last comment about sanctification exalting Christ&#039;s work in us...that is powerful.  Thank you for using all the intellectual ability that Jesus formed in you in order to serve Him well!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion, guys!  I&#8217;m enjoying being a &#8220;fly on the&#8230;blog wall.&#8221;  Benji, that last paragraph on your last comment about sanctification exalting Christ&#8217;s work in us&#8230;that is powerful.  Thank you for using all the intellectual ability that Jesus formed in you in order to serve Him well!</p>
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		<title>By: Benji Overcash</title>
		<link>http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Benji Overcash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-26</guid>
		<description>Yes, I think our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters are right about that, though I&#039;m ultimately more drawn to the Eastern Orthodox/Calvinist understanding, which seems to be a bit closer to the understanding of the earliest Christians.

I have explored the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke, but I see now that I didn&#039;t include it in the list of references in my post. Insofar as I (and quite a few real scholars) understand this parable, it appears to be one of the most straightforward NT glimpses into the ancient Jewish understanding of the course of the afterlife -- and in it, both Lazarus and the rich man are apparently in Hades, though they are separated by a &quot;great chasm&quot; and are experiencing different rewards.

The noun &#039;hades&#039; must not automatically be equated with hell, because it simply refers to an &#039;abode of the dead,&#039; very similar to the Hebrew idea of &#039;sheol&#039; (which, in the LXX, is translated as &#039;hades&#039;). And it is clear that, both for ancient Jews and Greco-Romans, the souls of both the righteous and the unrighteous were often thought to rest (or suffer) in hades (or, for Hebrews, sheol), which seems to be what we have in this parable from Luke. Biblical authors, by and large, do not seem to be concerned with precision about the course of the afterlife. (For a good example of this, see the Testament of Abraham 20:14. This is also evident throughout Paul&#039;s letters, and within other NT books -- probably Luke, too.) The concern seems to be with the ultimate fate of an individual rather than the precision regarding the &#039;how.&#039;

I do not and would not brush this off as a parable (and I know, of course, that you don&#039;t accuse me of that -- I&#039;m just clarifying). It is Scripture. But we must be aware of such things as context (textual, historical, cultural, etc.) and literary style, lest we misinterpret it. Jesus did indeed use parables to illuminate spiritual reality; but we must be careful to draw out the truth Jesus intended to express through the parable and not to focus on those stylistic details that are not intended to express spiritual truths. In the case of this parable, I think the truth that Jesus intends to convey is that those (such as the money-loving Pharisees to whom he is speaking) who indulge in good things and high status in this life will be tormented; likewise, those righteous ones who suffer in this life will receive consolation. To draw out of it stylistic and literary details and regard them spiritual truths may be missing the point, I think.

I think I may have been unclear in my post, because I didn&#039;t intend to suggest that one works for sanctification in this &#039;intermediate state.&#039; Sanctification, of course, cannot be earned by works, neither in this earthly life or during purgation (if indeed there is such a thing). I should also note that Roman Catholics, in general, that &#039;work&#039; is not done to purge sins in purgatory. This, I think, is a fairly common misunderstanding among Protestants.

Sanctification has nothing to do with works of human beings. It is about the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. And this in no way demerits the work of Christ -- it exalts it. Because of Christ&#039;s work on the cross, his righteousness does not simply have to be imputed to us. We may (and must!) become righteous -- not by works, of course, but by the work of the Spirit. Ultimately, this honors and exalts Christ&#039;s work, certainly more than only imputation. Naturally, we will disagree on this sanctification/purgation issue because of our differences in theology. Whatever our differences in theology, though, I&#039;m glad to be your Christian brother!

Thanks for your comment. I had to do a little thinking, and that&#039;s a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I think our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters are right about that, though I&#8217;m ultimately more drawn to the Eastern Orthodox/Calvinist understanding, which seems to be a bit closer to the understanding of the earliest Christians.</p>
<p>I have explored the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke, but I see now that I didn&#8217;t include it in the list of references in my post. Insofar as I (and quite a few real scholars) understand this parable, it appears to be one of the most straightforward NT glimpses into the ancient Jewish understanding of the course of the afterlife &#8212; and in it, both Lazarus and the rich man are apparently in Hades, though they are separated by a &#8220;great chasm&#8221; and are experiencing different rewards.</p>
<p>The noun &#8216;hades&#8217; must not automatically be equated with hell, because it simply refers to an &#8216;abode of the dead,&#8217; very similar to the Hebrew idea of &#8217;sheol&#8217; (which, in the LXX, is translated as &#8216;hades&#8217;). And it is clear that, both for ancient Jews and Greco-Romans, the souls of both the righteous and the unrighteous were often thought to rest (or suffer) in hades (or, for Hebrews, sheol), which seems to be what we have in this parable from Luke. Biblical authors, by and large, do not seem to be concerned with precision about the course of the afterlife. (For a good example of this, see the Testament of Abraham 20:14. This is also evident throughout Paul&#8217;s letters, and within other NT books &#8212; probably Luke, too.) The concern seems to be with the ultimate fate of an individual rather than the precision regarding the &#8216;how.&#8217;</p>
<p>I do not and would not brush this off as a parable (and I know, of course, that you don&#8217;t accuse me of that &#8212; I&#8217;m just clarifying). It is Scripture. But we must be aware of such things as context (textual, historical, cultural, etc.) and literary style, lest we misinterpret it. Jesus did indeed use parables to illuminate spiritual reality; but we must be careful to draw out the truth Jesus intended to express through the parable and not to focus on those stylistic details that are not intended to express spiritual truths. In the case of this parable, I think the truth that Jesus intends to convey is that those (such as the money-loving Pharisees to whom he is speaking) who indulge in good things and high status in this life will be tormented; likewise, those righteous ones who suffer in this life will receive consolation. To draw out of it stylistic and literary details and regard them spiritual truths may be missing the point, I think.</p>
<p>I think I may have been unclear in my post, because I didn&#8217;t intend to suggest that one works for sanctification in this &#8216;intermediate state.&#8217; Sanctification, of course, cannot be earned by works, neither in this earthly life or during purgation (if indeed there is such a thing). I should also note that Roman Catholics, in general, that &#8216;work&#8217; is not done to purge sins in purgatory. This, I think, is a fairly common misunderstanding among Protestants.</p>
<p>Sanctification has nothing to do with works of human beings. It is about the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers. And this in no way demerits the work of Christ &#8212; it exalts it. Because of Christ&#8217;s work on the cross, his righteousness does not simply have to be imputed to us. We may (and must!) become righteous &#8212; not by works, of course, but by the work of the Spirit. Ultimately, this honors and exalts Christ&#8217;s work, certainly more than only imputation. Naturally, we will disagree on this sanctification/purgation issue because of our differences in theology. Whatever our differences in theology, though, I&#8217;m glad to be your Christian brother!</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment. I had to do a little thinking, and that&#8217;s a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-25</guid>
		<description>I think Luther&#039;s rejection of Purgatory rested not simply on the sale of indulgences, but also on the notion of Purgatory as a place where the soul is further purified in order to be worthy to enter Paradise.  Which by the way, your statement of Purgatory perhaps being a place were those not entirely sanctified can become so sounds eerily similar to that Catholic Dogma.  You know my theology so you can probably guess that I believe something in the proximity with Calvin.  (although I never researched his stance on it, thank you for letting me what his view was)  

Check out Luke 16:19-31 
Verses 22-23 are noteworthy for this conversation
It says (depending on translation) that Lazarus (not the one raised by Jesus of course) was lifted up by the angels to &quot;Abraham&#039;s bosom&quot; (NASU, KJV) or &quot;Abraham&#039;s side&quot; (ESV) or simply &quot;to be with Abraham&quot; (NLT) or even somewhat humorously as &quot;to the lap of Abraham&quot; (Mess).
This in contrasted with the rich man who is in &quot;Hades&quot; or &quot;Hell&quot; where he is tormented.
To brush this off as simply a parable would not be doing parables justice.  Jesus used reality in order to illuminate spiritual reality.  So it makes since that could argue that based on His pattern of teaching, that this must be a reality (perhaps a simplified or even dramatized version of it with Lazarus looking down and seeing the rich man)

Ultimately, I see that the notion of an intermediate state where one works towards perfection in order to earn or merit closeness with God is un-Biblical and downright heretical.  The Reformation correctly placed our righteousness as being imputed by Christ, therefore, no more work is necessary.  Sins have been purged. Therefore, the idea that one must be entirely sanctified in order to enter the presence of God demerits the work of Christ, and simply man a work to perform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Luther&#8217;s rejection of Purgatory rested not simply on the sale of indulgences, but also on the notion of Purgatory as a place where the soul is further purified in order to be worthy to enter Paradise.  Which by the way, your statement of Purgatory perhaps being a place were those not entirely sanctified can become so sounds eerily similar to that Catholic Dogma.  You know my theology so you can probably guess that I believe something in the proximity with Calvin.  (although I never researched his stance on it, thank you for letting me what his view was)  </p>
<p>Check out Luke 16:19-31<br />
Verses 22-23 are noteworthy for this conversation<br />
It says (depending on translation) that Lazarus (not the one raised by Jesus of course) was lifted up by the angels to &#8220;Abraham&#8217;s bosom&#8221; (NASU, KJV) or &#8220;Abraham&#8217;s side&#8221; (ESV) or simply &#8220;to be with Abraham&#8221; (NLT) or even somewhat humorously as &#8220;to the lap of Abraham&#8221; (Mess).<br />
This in contrasted with the rich man who is in &#8220;Hades&#8221; or &#8220;Hell&#8221; where he is tormented.<br />
To brush this off as simply a parable would not be doing parables justice.  Jesus used reality in order to illuminate spiritual reality.  So it makes since that could argue that based on His pattern of teaching, that this must be a reality (perhaps a simplified or even dramatized version of it with Lazarus looking down and seeing the rich man)</p>
<p>Ultimately, I see that the notion of an intermediate state where one works towards perfection in order to earn or merit closeness with God is un-Biblical and downright heretical.  The Reformation correctly placed our righteousness as being imputed by Christ, therefore, no more work is necessary.  Sins have been purged. Therefore, the idea that one must be entirely sanctified in order to enter the presence of God demerits the work of Christ, and simply man a work to perform.</p>
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		<title>By: vivator</title>
		<link>http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>vivator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Why Catholic CHurch believes in purgatory?  I tried to explaion it in my posts.  If you are interested to read them, visit my blog and click purgatory category.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why Catholic CHurch believes in purgatory?  I tried to explaion it in my posts.  If you are interested to read them, visit my blog and click purgatory category.</p>
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		<title>By: vivator</title>
		<link>http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>vivator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 03:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-24</guid>
		<description>Why Catholic CHurch believes in purgatory?  I tried to explaion it in my posts.  If you are interested to read them, visit my blog and click purgatory category.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why Catholic CHurch believes in purgatory?  I tried to explaion it in my posts.  If you are interested to read them, visit my blog and click purgatory category.</p>
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		<title>By: Benji Overcash</title>
		<link>http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Benji Overcash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 00:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-22</guid>
		<description>Very true. Thanks for bringing that up, Dr. LaBar. I don&#039;t think, after experiencing particular judgment, one&#039;s ultimate eternal destiny could be changed after death. I hope, then, that Christians wouldn&#039;t slack up on evangelism thinking that they could pray someone out of hell, etc. I certainly can see how such a belief might cause one to slack up on one&#039;s own behavior, though -- and I&#039;m quite sure that happens.

That is an important point. Thanks once again for bringing it up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true. Thanks for bringing that up, Dr. LaBar. I don&#8217;t think, after experiencing particular judgment, one&#8217;s ultimate eternal destiny could be changed after death. I hope, then, that Christians wouldn&#8217;t slack up on evangelism thinking that they could pray someone out of hell, etc. I certainly can see how such a belief might cause one to slack up on one&#8217;s own behavior, though &#8212; and I&#8217;m quite sure that happens.</p>
<p>That is an important point. Thanks once again for bringing it up.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin LaBar</title>
		<link>http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin LaBar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://benjiovercash.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/why-i-believe-protestants-should-reconsider-purgatory/#comment-21</guid>
		<description>You may be right. Even if there isn&#039;t a purgatory, I&#039;m not certain that Christians (or non-Christians, for that matter) go straight to their reward.

There is, of course, a danger in a belief in purgatory, namely that we can slack up on evangelism, or on our own behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may be right. Even if there isn&#8217;t a purgatory, I&#8217;m not certain that Christians (or non-Christians, for that matter) go straight to their reward.</p>
<p>There is, of course, a danger in a belief in purgatory, namely that we can slack up on evangelism, or on our own behavior.</p>
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